Episode 4: Recruiting Talent - Keys To Success

Richard: Welcome back to Agile&Me a PT Leadership podcast series. Today's topic is recruiting talent - keys to success. Our guest is Anne Frederick, who owns and operates her own recruiting agency. Anne was a speech pathologist earlier in her career and her clinical and managerial experience across a continuum of rehab from acute care, long-term care, outpatient home health, and even community-based rehab programs. As a manager, she always recruited as part of a job. So when she was laid off, she started a recruitment agency, and has been recruiting healthcare professionals for over 15 years. Welcome Anne.

Anne: Thank you very much for having me, Richard.

Richard: I'm really excited to have you as a podcast guest today, and I know that you have a wealth of information that our listeners will find useful. So I really appreciate it. Before we dive into some questions specific to talent acquisition and recruiting, I'd love to know a little bit about yourself.

Anne: I have a degree in speech pathology, a master's in speech Pathology, so that's in my early career. I contracted with various healthcare organizations to provide their speech therapy services. I had a company and I sold that practice and joined a national rehab company as a regional director, and as you mentioned, I was laid off and since. You always do recruiting as part of your job as a manager.I started my own recruiting company, Rehab Resource, and here I am today. My current role is owner/director of Rehab Resource, and we recruit primarily PT and OT speech for healthcare facilities nationwide. But for the last 15 years, my focus has been on physical therapists for outpatients, but that changed a little bit after Covid. A fun fact about me is that I just moved into an RV and I'm gonna be traveling full-time. But I'm excited because this allows me to visit clinics and also my clients to get to know them better and also see the country. So I'm really excited about that.

Richard: That's really fantastic. Are you getting to drive it?

Anne: Oh yeah. Oh yes.

Richard: Oh, fantastic. Now, is this a little kind for 2 people or is this one of these huge RVs that drive around and hog the road ?

Anne: Oh no, it's like 25 feet. So it's a Ford truck front, and then it has the rv. So it's I mean, it has sleeping for quite a few people, but you couldn't do that. It's a pretty tight quarters.

Richard: That's great and hopefully you're at least somewhere warm.

Anne: Yes, That's what I am planning,

Richard: Perfect. I found your background as a speech pathologist. It's funny how life twists and turns, isn't it, with regards to going from a clinical role to talent acquisition or recruiting, was it anything that was ever on your radar?

Anne: No, not really. We just started hearing about people placing candidates. I lived in California at the time and one of my friends who also owned a practice was getting a speech therapist from a recruiter. I thought, oh, that's kind of interesting. I have a real entrepreneurial spirit. So when I was laid off, it was just like, okay, I can do that. And sure enough I could, and what was great was because I know the different settings and also I'm a speech therapist and so I can come at it as a therapist, but also as a manager. So it's really served me well.

Richard: Absolutely. See, not only can you kind of talk the talk where you can walk the walk, which I think is critical when, when talking to clinicians isn't that great. Well, let's kind of dive in and, you know, as I was coming up through the profession, and certainly during training, I had no understanding of knowledge, training or any sort of exposure to the world of recruitment or talent acquisition.And just for the listeners, you know, what exactly is the role of talent acquisition?

Anne: Well, as far as talent acquisition, their role is to find candidates that are qualified candidates. To fill your openings. And I'm a bit of a different person in that I'm a contingency recruiter, so for me, I only get paid if I place a candidate. I'm not an in-house recruiter, although I've had that experience. I was in-house with Physiotherapy Associates and also had a contract position with Athletico, so I know both sides, both in-house and then the contingency recruiter on the outside. Sometimes you get stuck with that office manager. I always say, how many of your office staff could have time to look through a hundred resumes and pick out candidates? and sometimes that's literally what it is. I put an ad in for a pharmacist down in Dallas Fort Worth and I had a hundred resumes in 24 hours. So I mean, that would be overwhelming to the HR office manager person. The other benefit is that many times an outside recruiter can speed up the process as far as what it takes to get a new employee. I have already a database of talent that has already been vetted and may fit the requirements for a job opening. And finally, rather than just post jobs, which some offices or companies do on Indeed or another job website, we as outside recruiters. Also use other techniques to find candidates, whether that's going through resume databases, searching licensure lists, contacting members of a specific association like maybe hand therapy or vestibular rehab. And also we recruit new grads coming outta the universities.

Richard: Yeah, that's a really good point with regards to being kind of proactive and, active in recruiting and acquiring talent because, obviously for physical therapy, There's a shortage of qualified candidates nationally, and what I found is if you are passive in nature, you never really find the talent that you are looking for, you might find some talent, but as I say, not necessarily the talent that you want. It really takes a lot of work and experience and a network, doesn't it to truly find it? The appropriate people to present to the company that is using a contingency recruiter.

Anne: That's correct, yes, Right now that is looking for a sports therapist. So he wants somebody who has either played collegiate sports or has clinical experience working in a sports therapy candidate, some or a clinic. So not just any like an outpatient ortho candidate is gonna do. So it's up to us to, you know, go through LinkedIn and all these other things to try to find him a sports therapist candidate.

Richard: Yeah, I was really looking for that needle in a haystack. And the fact that you do it day in, day out, you're obviously more effective and efficient than if a clinician or a small practice owner is trying to do it. The other thing I, I've always said, and I say, I'm sure I've said already on podcast is, the winners or losers in therapy going forward will be those businesses or practices that can re recruit and retain the right people. Whilst there's obviously a cost with contingency recruiting I believe that it's really a very small cost. If you take into account the cost of either not being able to get somebody or recruiting the wrong person, what's your thoughts?

Anne: I definitely agree and for contingency recruiters too, they also have a guarantee. So many times it's a replacement guarantee. So if the candidate leaves before or is terminated before a certain number of days, they will replace that candidate. For me, I'll just do a refund. And if you want me to continue to look for a candidate, I will, but it's just better for me to just give them a refund. So there something's in place to prevent somebody from paying a large amount of money for a candidate and then having them leave, you know, a month from now.

Richard: Yeah, that's really reassuring. As a person that's used contingency recruiting and continues to use the services of yours, like yourself, it's really reassuring to know that. You're not going to just put a warm body in the seat because there's skin in the game and if it's just a warm body on the seat, they won't stay. And you know, as such, you don't get any type of compensation either. That's correct. Obviously anyone can try and recruit. I found that people have varying degrees of success. What's the benefit, do you believe, using a talent acquisition team be that either kind of in-house or contingency? So, what do you think are the benefits? Then say a small practice owner trying to do it on their own.

Anne: Well, as I've said, we have a lot of tools at our fingertips to try to find the right candidate. It takes a lot of digging sometimes to find good candidates, especially if the clinic is in a metro area but is in a rural area. That's really difficult. Sometimes we're called in to fill those hard to fill positions, and we can do that. I think the benefit from using talent acquisition in-house or as a contingency recruiter is to be able to, you know, as I say, fill those positions with qualified candidates. And in, as far as in-house recruiters, many times they have, and I did at Athletico, had ad recs, so I'm trying to fill ad positions. And so I'm not as able to give as much time to finding candidates for a certain position because I had so many openings. Many times their hands are kind of tied. They receive hundreds of resumes a day. So it's difficult to go through all those as they go into the applicant tracking system.

Richard: That's interesting. I think my talent acquisition team, I think if they had 80 wrecks each, I think they would have a heart attack .

Anne: It was difficult. We'll continue the conversation after a short music break and advertisement. Agile EMR is a comprehensive all-in-one electronic medical records solution created by physical, the. For physical therapists features include everything you need to run your physical therapy practice in one place. To schedule a demonstration of Agile emr, visit our website at www.agiletherapyemr.com

Richard: Welcome back to Agile&Me, a Physical Therapy Leadership podcast. Now we talked about the kind of the benefits to an employer, but obviously there are therapists out there that use a contingency recruiter for actually trying to find them positions. Right. With kind of the other side of the fence, what are the benefits to therapists using a contingency recruiter for instance?

Anne: Well, I think that I certainly wanna create a positive candidate experience and whether my client hires the candidate or not because it not only affects my brand, but also affects theirs. So that's really important for me. I think the benefit to the candidate is frequent communications regarding the status of their application or where they are at the interview process. I stay in touch with my hiring manners to know, are they interested in this candidate? Do they wanna do a Zoom interview onsite interview? Then we turn around and stay in touch with the candidate as far as where they're at. Unfortunately, that's a big complaint on, let's say, LinkedIn. You know, people write on the forum saying that their recruiters don't stay in touch with them. I don't wanna be that person. And so we like to give them a lot of communication. We also provide interview tips and may make suggestions as far as editing their resume. Sometimes we've had, you know, resumes. Ten pages long and no one's gonna look at that. Or like a Zoom interview. They will have the blinds open and back of them. So what it does is it makes their face kind of blacked out on a Zoom interview and the hiring manager can't see them. So we just give them tips like that. And also, I'm available 24/7 if they have a question, they can give me a call. And sometimes that personal touch with other recruiters is missing. That's really intrestings.

Richard: Sounds as if really. You are there as in, in multiple roles, obviously from the technical perspective of working through the process, through to kind of holding their hand and preventing the pitfalls. Because there are obviously lots of pitfalls and you know, different employers I would imagine that you present. Candidates too have very different cultures and it's trying to match. The candidate with, with that particular entity's culture and expectations. Is that right? Right.

Anne: That's correct.

Richard: What I'd like to move on to in this section is really focusing on candidates and from the perspective of an employer. I'd love to know your thoughts on what factors and attributes about the job are important to applicants. So, when I'm looking for therapists, what, what are applicants telling you? What are they looking for in that job?

Anne: Well, some applicants, like new grads, are looking for mentoring and candidates with more experience are looking for career advancement opportunities. Those are the two things we hear. Also, continuing education is a big one. You know, my candidates always ask about, first of all, salary and also what the benefits are like 401k and PTO and depending on where the clinic or the client is, they wanna know how many patients they'll see per hour. And I've just come across that out in California where some clinics see 20 patients an hour. They do maybe have a medical scribe, but for some physical therapists that's just, something they don't wanna do. So they always ask that too.

Richard: Yeah. So I assume it's 20 patients per day rather than an hour.

Anne: Yeah, you're right. I'm sorry.

Richard: Say it hasn't quite hasn't quite got to that point yet.

Anne: Yeah, that's right. I'm sorry.

Richard: That's a really interesting point because, obviously as an operational leader, I've interviewed, well at this point in my career, hundreds of clinicians. And that's a really common question, isn't it? How many patients do you see in a day? And I kind of turn it around and I say, well, We see sufficient patients to be able to pay the bills and get normal profit. Because obviously we need to generate some money. At the end of the day, None of us are doing it as a charity essentially, or very few of us. Right. I think that throws them off a little bit because they assume that they can go around and negotiate down the number of patients to a point where it's relatively few and they don't really think about the fact that it's got to pay for the overhead of the facility and, and kind of what I call the mortgage or any type of interest. Do you believe that sometimes candidates don't really understand that the volume is really, really related to being able to pay the bills and the payers?

Anne: I agree with that. And you know, it depends too on what the reimbursement is in some states, the reimbursement is so much less than other states. And I don't think they realized.

Richard: Yeah. If I feel sometimes that they're just being told from a third party entity at their school or from another clinician that, you should, should be able to see one an hour. Well, right. The reality nowadays is that they just don't even pay their salary, let alone all the other costs. What type of questions do candidates tend to ask the interviewer? You know, obviously we've talked about salary and patient load. Are there any other things that candidates that we haven't already kind of mentioned that tend to ask the interview or important or hot topic?

Anne: Sometimes they'll ask who they will report to and ours they wanna know. Will they be working evenings? So the work schedule, who they'll report to, what type of career advancement opportunities there are. Is there mentoring available? Those are the questions that they ask.

Richard: Do you feel that there's perhaps a disconnect between expectations of the candidates and then the realities of outpatient therapy practice? What I mean by that, for instance, is, we talk about being a service-based provider. The fact that we're providing therapy is really somewhat academic. We are just providing for a want of a better word, so let's say just a commodity, but, but the idea of the society wanting it when they want it, how they want it, where they want it. And then we have clinicians that want to work certain selected hours that don't match the need.

Anne: I tend to find the clinicians, the therapists that don't have a lot of experience or new grads, therapists that have had two or three years of experience. I mean, they understand they've worked someplace else, so that's not a problem. But it's these newer grads in the last year to two years that wanna make their own hours. They don't wanna work in the evening.

Richard: After interviewing a lot of new graduates, it's almost as if they're given a checklist from their, from their college. Right? I can almost predict what they're going to ask. And they are almost in the right order as well. It's somewhat amusing, but, from an employer's perspective, it's somewhat frustrating because truly. There seems to be this mismatch, which never is good, is it, when you're trying to recruit somebody for the long term? Right.

Anne: Unfortunately, in the physical therapist that we talk to or who are one or two years out.

Richard: Yeah, it's funny I get therapists that want to work, 9 to 4:30 or 9 to 5 then I'd probably want four tens with Monday or Friday off, and, and I try to humor them. That just doesn't work, does it? In this modern day of healthcare?

Anne: No, it doesn't.

Richard: We kind of touch upon it, but what do employers need to understand or offer to attract and retain clinicians? So it's really a balance, I think, isn't it, between the needs of the business and the applicants, but what do employers need to understand, do you believe?

Anne: I think as far as an employer in terms of offering, attracting, retaining clinicians, it would be great if employers could offer a sign on bonus or relocation assistance. That's a big thing these days. I understand that not all companies and not, certainly not all clinics can offer that, but that's one thing that therapists like, as I said, they also like the opportunity to grow clinically and professionally. So it'd be neat if they could let them know what the career ladder is and what kind of continuing education opportunities there are. I think assistance with board certification is also a great benefit to offer. There's more and more therapists that are asking if that's available and I would love for there to be a way to offer student loan repayment. That would be a great way to. Attract and retain candidates because you could have them sign some type of contract that they have to stay two or three years, whatever. Certainly there is some information online tying the student loan repayment to the 401k. So if somebody's interested in that, I'd encourage them to go online and see what's been written about that. So that is a possibility.

Richard: Yeah, that's really interesting because we're always looking for creative ways to attract talent and certainly what you've described as sign on bonuses, relocation, board certification, refunds, et cetera, et cetera. We certainly entertain and utilize, particularly for those positions that are hard to fill. We'll continue the conversation after a short music break and advertisement. Most orthotic manufacturers take a one shape fits all approach to solving lower body pain and symptoms. They focus on arch support for temporary pain relief, which can end up leading to inefficiencies in injuries. That's where bio correct is different, more than just an insert. Bio Correct is a fully customizable foot orthotic system engineered to address and treat biomechanical imbalances of the entire body and we're backed by more than 25 years of experience. To learn more, visit us@biocorrect.com.

Richard: Welcome back to Agile&Me, a Physical Therapy Leadership podcast. Let's move on to the employer. I mean we talked about candidates, but really I'd love to provide some information and guidance to employers and I'm sure you've dealt with more candidates now and almost than hot dinners, and they're definitely with the people that you've assisted and come across during your career. They're definitely strong candidates, what really is the difference, do you believe, between a strong candidate and a weak candidate?

Anne: To me, what makes a strong candidate is somebody who's responsive these days. A lot of candidates are not responsive to emails or texts or phone calls. So we're always looking for somebody who's responsive who'll call us back. And the other thing is I'm also looking for candidates that don't have job top uc resumes where the candidate has had a different job like every nine months. So, We tend to not present those. We're just afraid that they'll job hop. So that's what I'm looking for. And they also need to have experience in this setting that is being advertised. So if it's an outpatient ortho, they need to have experience in outpatient ortho or recent clinical experience. And not, let's say, have just home health or long-term care experience. But those are the attributes I think would make a strong candidate

Richard: I obviously have licensure and clinical competency. Now I kind of take it as a given almost, various certifications and fellowships, they're great. Right? But really as time's gone on, I've almost focused more on soft skills and it's interesting you say responsiveness because it's amazing the number of candidates. What I say ghost you. Yes, and I, unfortunately, see that as a sad reflection of, potential future of the profession. Because it doesn't matter if you have multiple interviews and people looking for you for a position. I don't think that necessarily, you know, sends out a good signal.

Anne: No it doesn't. And you know, we won't consider those, I won't present those kinds of candidates to my clients.

Richard: So as an employer it was amazing looking back at what I thought were appropriate questions for candidates, and since that time I've learned that there are actually quite a lot of laws and, and best practice as it pertains to, to what one should ask or not ask. What should really an employer ask of a candidate at the time of interview.

Anne: I love it when the employer asks, where does that candidate think they'll be in five years? And it's interesting what candidates say because sometimes they'll say something that is not even related to the job that they're interviewing for. And I think that's a great question to ask. And also about their skills and what kind of, you know, challenges that they had. Those are all good questions to ask a new candidate.

Richard: It’s always funny, isn't it? When you have a candidate and you ask that question, where do you see yourself in three to five years? The cheeky ones will say your job. But it's funny how Vehemently or that they will very clearly say that they want to be in a very different role than they're actually applying for. Right? And you think to yourself, well, why would I employ you if you're going to leave in two, three years time for something completely different?

Anne: That's right. When they say, oh, well I hope to be working for Cir Dule or they are in an outpatient ortho. That's right. Youo position.

Richard: Yeah, so they want to become an ornithologist or a con construction manager.

Anne: You just cringe when you see that.

Richard: On the opposite side, obviously, there's questions that I believe that you should ask candidates, but there's definitely questions we should not be asking candidates. Can you just kind of tell me, you know, the three or four questions that, for various reasons, usually legal reasons could get us in hot water.

Anne: Right. And these are questions that we as recruiters don't ask. I mean, you certainly can't ask their nationality whether they're married, whether they're pregnant, and you cannot these days ask what their present salary is although I ask what is their salary expectation? And that kind of gives me an idea what they're currently making. And sometimes they offer that.

Richard: Yes it doesn't matter if you are a sole practitioner or a multi-state multi site business those questions are off limits, aren't they? Regardless of whoever's asking them. So just the fact that you are a lone clinic owner, doesn't really let you off the hook asking those types of questions. And I believe this is really one of the key reasons why there is value in using either a talent acquisition team or a contingent recruiter because this can cost the business a remarkable amount of money, couldn't it? Oh, yes. Hardship kind of interest. Have you ever had a situation where a potential employer has asked. Inappropriate questions as it pertains to, for instance, salary or personal status that, that has got the, got them into hot water and the candidates have, have you know, taken action.

Anne: I don't know of any. What's interesting though is everybody is really quick, candidates are really quick to jump on the, you're demo, you're discriminating against me. Band whacking. So if you tell somebody that they don't meet the qualifications that we're looking for, they may come back and say, well, I know it's because of my age, you know? something like that, which isn't the case at all. So you really have to be careful of those kinds of things. You're not appearing to be discriminatory in terms of your hiring practices. Because it's never happened before. It didn't happen three years ago, but now all of a sudden if you, you know, reject somebody, there's a chance they'll come back and say that you're discriminating against them. I had the one about the age, and I assured him that there were a lot of them. At that clinic that were much older than him and that we didn't discriminate based on age. But still that was the thought in his mind

Richard: When I qualified, which was two life sentences ago, if under British jail terms. There was an excessive therapist and you know, if we had to kind of not necessarily fight for jobs, but it certainly wasn't easy, we, it was slim pickings. And my expectations as a new graduate almost 30 years ago was, I believe, very different from expectations nowadays. How have you found ex expectations have changed in say, the last five, 10 years as pertains to candidates?

Anne: It's very interesting because a year ago it was, The supply of candidates was greater than the demand. And then certainly after Covid and you know, all the layoffs, a lot of physical therapists were laid off. Then you had graduating classes that were coming out in May. Another graduating class in August, another one in December. Here we are in 2021. We'll have another one in May. I think so. As far as expectations go, it's not easy to get a job. Now. There's an excess of physical therapists and certainly new grads looking for jobs. And also those physical therapists that let's say have 10 years, 15 years of experience are also looking for positions. So it's really changed. It's quite interesting.

Richard: Yes. To be honest, I never thought it would occur. I've talked for many years that this mismatch between supply and demand is such that employers will always struggle recruiting top talent because there's, there's multiple options for right commissions, but I just see as an employer it, we're in a nice position, but obviously for clinicians it, it, it must be tough for 'em.

Anne: It is. And you have you know, I talked to people that graduated in May of 2020 and still don't have a

Richard: job. Yes. Yeah. And their student loans are due. So it's not as if they get grace on that too much. Is there really? Right.

Anne: And one of the expectations too was a year ago, salaries were so high, let's say for new grads. I placed a candidate in California, a new grad, and he got $105,000. Wow. And now they're offering positions. You know, the position at 85. So, those days are over for those high salaries for new grads.

Richard: Wow. That's a huge difference. Obviously listeners who live in certain states will probably fall over backwards, Uhhuh and their chair just based on 85,000.But, the cost of living is much higher there, isn't it? We'll continue the conversation after a short music break and advertisement. The world around us is changing at a rapid pace, and so is our preference for how, where and when we choose healthcare. That's where Agile virtual care answers the call.Agile virtual care is a comprehensive telehealth solution. Revolutionizing physical therapy by making PT convenient, safe, and accessible across the entire country for providers and employers looking to offer employees different options for preventative and continual care. Agile virtual Physical Therapy delivers the comfort and convenience that patients want and the quality care they deserve from experienced licensed therapists.

Richard: Welcome back to Agile&Me, A Physical Therapy Leadership podcast. Moving on, I think we've. Started talking about the pandemic and the impact of the pandemic, and I'd love to kind of discuss how that's impacted both job seekers and employers. We've kind of started to touch on it, but what are the key factors that have occurred since March of last year, both on job seekers and also employers?

Anne: As of March of last year, a lot of my larger clients, larger companies, put hiring on hold for several months. And you know, as I said, for as far as new grads, there just aren't any jobs. It's now starting to come back a little bit and there are companies that are expanding. You know, starting de novo clinics and clinics are getting busier, but it just takes time.

Richard: Obviously being CEO of Alliance Physical Therapy, we had to hold recruiting. Obviously volumes were significantly impacted, like pretty much everybody, right. We've recovered significantly, but I would say most providers would say they haven't recovered to pre covid volume levels. And also during that time, I think a lot of companies took a hard look at staffing levels versus right patient demand. So I assume you're still seeing a significant weakness, even though it's recovered from the worst period of the first wave. Would you say that's true?

Anne: Yes I am. It's interesting because my business went down 90% on a Friday in March. I was working on 30 openings and by Monday, Three left. It was kind of quite a change. And what's great too is I failed to mention this is the whole as therapists have been asking for teletherapy and reimbursement of teletherapy for a long time, and Medicare and private insurance companies just hadn't done it. And now with Covid it's routine for a practice or a company to have a segment of teletherapy for patients. So I think that's great, that's a very positive thing that comes out of Covid.

Richard: Yes. Now, Do you feel, what's your gut feeling with regards to whether change in the marketplace as it pertains to jobs and or employers looking for clinicians? Do you feel that there's been, it's, it's just a short term shift and it's just a kind of a road bump? Or would you say that there's really some fundamental shift as it pertains to recruitment to clinicians that really is going to impact for a considerable period of time?

Anne: I personally think I, and I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a year for clinics and companies to get back where they were pre covid and for hiring new grads or people to kind of level out.

Richard: So obviously we anticipated that this change in dynamic where pre covid, there were basically more jobs than there were clinicians, and then that reverse during Covid. So in the long run you feel that the market will go back,

Anne: Oh, I'm not sure about. Just because every six months you have a new graduating class. So I think what will happen is that certainly clinics will rebound and it'll be a little bit easier for clinicians to find jobs, but I, you know, I don't know if it'll ever be like it was before.

Richard: And then what was really interesting was you're telling us about California and then the reduction in starting the salary. Do you think companies will use this as an opportunity to kind of reset salaries Or again, is the demand going to continue to kind of outstrip supply where those salaries will go back up before too long?

Anne: No, I think that the salaries overall will go down especially for new grads.

Richard: I agree. And it worries me somewhat for the new grads because they're, they're certainly, their loans and cost of living are not going down right. But their salary in relative and real terms, I think on the profession as a whole is downward. When I look over an extended period of time, for instance, 10 years ago when I was recruiting experienced clinicians it seemed to be fairly common to expect or see six figure salaries for. For experienced clinicians. Right. Whereas now that that seems very unusual, is that kind of mirror what you've seen?

Anne: That's correct.

Richard: Now, obviously a lot of our listeners are small private practices people that are fairly early careerists as it pertains to leadership. If they would like to utilize your skills as a contingent recruiter, how would they best connect with you?

Anne: Well, thank you. You know, I'm on LinkedIn and also my company is Rehab Resource. So you can always contact me through there or my email address is ann anne@rehabresource.com

Richard: That's fantastic. Well, thank you so much Anne for today. I've really appreciated the time and I've certainly learned a few things myself and a lot of food for thought so thank you once again.