Richard sits down and talks to Perry Ashley of Perry Ashley Coaching and talks about the role self-awareness plays in being a good leader. This topic is great for clinic directors and physical therapists but also incredibly relevant for anyone who finds themselves in a leadership role of any capacity. Or for those who are looking to do some self-improvement. Interested in becoming a better leader?
Visit Perryashleycoaching.com or connect with Perry on LinkedIn @Perryashleyptcpqc or shoot her an email at perryashleycoaching@gmail.com!
[00:02] AD: Alliance Physical Therapy partners in Agile Virtual Physical Therapy proudly present Agile and Me, a Physical Therapy Leadership podcast devised to help emerging and experienced therapy leaders learn more about various topics relevant to outpatient therapy services.
[00:19 ] Richard: So welcome back to Agile and me, a PT Leadership series. We excited in this episode to speak with Perry Ashley from Perry Ashley Coaching. Welcome, Perry.
[00:32 ] Perry: Well, thank you for having me, Richard. I'm glad to be here.
[00:35 ] Richard: Thank you. So today's episode I want to talk about self-awareness. And I'm really quite looking forward to this because it's one of these topics that it's mentioned occasionally, but I don't really think that many leaders and managers give it much thought. But the more I think about it, the more critical this is, I think, to being successful. So very interested in learning more about it. So obviously, to begin with, it's really trying to understand what we mean when we talk about self awareness. So would you be able to provide us with your understanding of what it is and perhaps why it's so important?
[01:21 ] Perry: Right, yeah. Self awareness is really the ability to accurately recognize our thoughts, emotions, talents, triggers, patterns, needs, boundaries, values. There's just so much we are so multidimensional. Right. And so if we were able to accurately recognize those things and understand the impact that our behavior and actions have on others, that is true self awareness. And in that, you notice that it's a twofold piece. Right. It's the internal self awareness, the inward understanding of ourselves, as well as external self awareness, how others view us and perceive us.
[02:06 ] Richard: Absolutely. It's amazing, really, that on the whole, we don't do a good job recognizing our own thoughts and how we come across. And why do you think perhaps people struggle with this concept of self awareness?
[02:27 ] Perry: I really believe it's because we've become such a busy society. We constantly have input coming in at us at all times, as well as we are constantly striving to do. Right. Instead of being, I think we ignore the being part of us and understanding, like how we're wired, how we are different and unique, what brings us joy, what fills us up, what drains us. I think we just keep on going. We have so much to do, we just don't take time to consider all those other pieces.
[03:09 ] Richard: That concept I find very interesting. Would you be able to kind of perhaps expand on that a little bit with regards to practical examples and how perhaps society may have changed a little bit over time based on the idea you think that kind of information overload?
[03:30 ] Perry: Yeah. So if we look back in history and this is just totally my perspective of this, I think of like, okay, so although I live in Wisconsin, I'm from the south. And in the south we have those front porches. And back in the olden days, I think people just spent more time just being, I mean, sitting alone, sitting with another person. There was a lot of time for us to process our thoughts and process maybe our feelings as well. And I think over time we have ignored our feelings. A lot of us don't understand how to identify our feelings, what words to use for our feelings. And so we find it easier just to continue producing, continue to do something, to stay busy, whether that is physical or watching a TV show, watching TikTok videos. It's just easier, I think, to not engage with our true self.
[04:35 ] Richard: Yeah it's really interesting. I think this concept of what you're perhaps inferring is with modern day or as time has changed we have increasing number of stimulus which is perhaps impacting our ability to cognitively process and then respond in an appropriate manner. Am I being too simplistic in that way? So basically there's too much input which is impacting our ability to process and then give the appropriate response. Is that correct in saying that?
[05:13 ] Perry: Yeah, I totally agree with that.
[05:18 ] Richard: If that's the case then do you think that it's going to continue to get harder? Because to me with modern society and demands of society it seems that the amount of data and stimulus just seems to be increasing at an exponential rate which doesn't bode very well in some ways, does it?
[05:40 ] Perry: No, it doesn't. And it's hard to see that there's an end in sight to that. And so that's why I think it's so important for people just to choose to take time out for themselves, choose to get to know themselves better and choose to offer or to reserve space in their lives just to be able to process who they are, how they want to show up, who do they want to really be.
[06:06 ] Richard: Yeah, I assume that takes time in itself, doesn't it? Which I would imagine requires a lot of discipline on the individual because there's so many competing demands and increasing demands on our time that I assume one has to consciously set aside that period. I won't necessarily say it's introspective but certainly time of being rather than doing shall we say?
[06:37 ] Perry: Absolutely and I think one key piece sometimes we just have to put ourselves on the calendar make an appointment with.
[06:43 ] Richard: obviously does it matter when you do this, how often you do this, what's the literature saying and what's your thoughts with regards to being effective? With regards to this B component? Does it take almost like micronaps but small periods of time or is it a slightly longer period? Is there particular times of the day? I'd love to kind of get your thoughts on what it requires perhaps to prevent that overload which then kind of goes back to that idea of hopefully improving our self awareness.
[07:29 ] Perry: Yeah so that's a great question and when you were saying that it makes me think of the when you said naps I think it reminds me of what I do in the mental fitness training when I lead people through that. We do like many meditations, right, throughout the day. And there's literature that says, okay, yes, you can do 15 minutes of meditation a day for six to eight weeks, and you can actually change. There will be changes on a functional MRI. Okay? And in that you can also have many because some people say, well, I don't have 15 minutes a day, which I would totally challenge. However, if we can learn to be present, there's studies that show if we can learn to be present, we're happier in general. I mean, that's part of a, you know, to be happier, you just learn to be present and enjoy the moment. And so with the mini mindfulness exercises, you can actually, in the middle of the day, as you're walking down the hallway, you can do well, I use Positive Intelligence mental fitness program. So we do PQ reps, which are little mini-mindfulness activities. And first you learn how to do it when you're settled, and then as you get better and better at it, you can do it on the go. You can do it as you're walking down the hallway going to get your next patient. You can do it as you're sitting there with your patient. And then because you want to be able to settle your mind and just be present with the patient, make sure they're seen, valued, and heard, and then you're going to be a much more active listener. And it just helps with patient care. Right? So I know I went down a little trail there, but does that help?
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[10:05 ] Richard: So if we kind of backtrack a little bit, my perception is people's self awareness is, on the whole, poor. I know when we spoke briefly before, I think you confirmed that on the whole, a high percentage of people just really don't understand or know how they come across. Is that the case? And why is it important to be self aware, particularly as it relates to perhaps managing a clinic team, for instance?
[10:36 ] Perry: Okay, so I'll go with the question about general self awareness. 1st, 95% of people think that they are self aware. Okay? So 95% of the listeners here probably think they're pretty self aware. However, studies show that only ten to 15% of these people are truly self aware. That is, the majority of the people are totally unaware that they aren't self aware. Right? Like people who are self aware are generally living much richer lives. They're happier and more fulfilled. They're living in alignment with how they're wired. They're more effective in managing the gaps, they're better with relationships, they're better communicators and they're more confident. And especially as a leader, that confidence is huge because then you're able to take constructive criticism, you're able to grow and learn in controversy. And then one key piece is software. People tend to run more profitable companies. So I think that is very intriguing for the PT business owners.
[11:42 ] Richard: Yeah, that's remarkable because when I think about profitability the business, I think about control of operational metrics. I even think about recruitment, retention. But the idea of self awareness being a component, a factor, it makes perfect sense. Now you say it, but I've never been on a leadership course where during the day whilst they're talking about operational metrics they have a session on self awareness. But I think that by the sounds of it is equally important. My other thought with self awareness, this idea of only 1015 percent of people are self aware, it's no wonder that communications go Awry, isn't it? Going back to that kind of stimulus response, if the message isn't being delivered in an appropriate way, which by the sounds of it is very likely based on one's lack of self awareness you can't possibly get the response or the reply back from the recipient, can you?
[12:53 ] Perry: Correct. You really can't. And just knowing how you are being perceived by other people is huge. Right. Also I think a key factor in self awareness is the more you know about yourself, the more you realize everybody else is so unique. Right. They have different needs and values and strengths. And as a leader, if you can tap into that and communicate in a way that appeals to them, that really I would say you can talk to one person's heart in a different way. You can talk to another person's heart, if that makes sense. If you know someone has a victim saboteur, you might want to talk to them in a certain way versus if another person has a hyperachiever saboteur or if they have a gift in communication or context. I mean, you would just talk to them maybe differently. But just being aware creates the openness to consider other avenues of communication.
[13:53 ] Richard: Another way I perhaps look at it is the idea that I assume part of self awareness is understanding and managing one's own behavioral style. Because unless you're able to understand how you are coming across, then I assume it's extremely difficult to be able to flex and accommodate other people's behavioral styles. Unless there's that self awareness, you don't really stand any chance of being able to truly connect with your patient, with your employee, with your peers.
[14:36 ] Perry: Yes. And really self awareness is the first.
[14:39 ] Richard: Step to other awareness and then what do you mean by other awareness? Because interested to explore that perhaps?
[14:51 ] Perry: So when I think of other awareness, I'm thinking, okay, well, you have the two pieces of self awareness, awareness of your internal self and then how others perceive you. But the more you're able to tap into your own strengths and values and see yourself as unique, then other awareness is being able to pick out their strengths and talents and pull them up. You're able to meet their needs, see read their body language better so their verbal and nonverbal communication better.
[15:26 ] Richard: Yes. Now you say like that is obvious, I think a really good point. If you don't know yourself, then how can you know anyone else?
[15:35 ] Perry: So if you have taken like lift and strength and maybe one of your top talents is intellectual, the more you know about intellect as your talent theme and you understand that, hey, with intellectual I need time to think deeply and often, right? And if that's the case and you're a clinic leader, then you might come across as aloof or unapproachable. So you need to be aware of how others might perceive you. So that there's open communication there. Maybe they understand that's the way you are and that you're really not that's not your intent to be aloof and closed. It's just that you just need that thinking time and it's fine that they knock on the door and interrupt and then you engage with them. So that's one example. And so say an employee who has a top talent of focus, they might need to know the why and all the details so that they can stay on track. And if you aren't aware of this, then you might perceive that employee as challenging you. And that might cause you to be irritated or even insecure when that was not their intent at all. They just needed that extra information to get that correct direction before they move forward.
[16:50 ] Richard: It's much easier, isn't it, as individuals to if a communication doesn't have the anticipated outcome or result is to blame the other individual. It's much more convenient and easier rather than having this kind of introspective perspective and taking a look at ones essentially self awareness. Because it's hard work, isn't it, to critique oneself, particularly when you don't necessarily even have the skills to be able to identify what you're trying to critique. I know it's kind of getting a little into the weeds, but certainly in society we're very quick to place blame on the other party, the one that is receiving the information, isn't it?
[17:44 ] Perry: And so with conflict, if we can be okay with asking ourselves what is my role in this? What value might be challenged in this? So it might not be personality conflict, it might be a values conflict. And if you seek to understand the other person and ask, okay, in this conversation, in this dialogue with the other person, my goal is not to be thinking of what I'm going to say next. My goal is to listen intently and to understand the 10% that they're saying. That is right. And so if I am seeking understanding, that person is going to be seen, valued and heard, they're going to drop their guard and you're going to actually be able to have a better conversation if you're coming from a place of curiosity and understanding.
[18:45 ] Richard: Yes. It really goes to the point where the recipient of the communication or the, you know, the Clint, be it the clinician or the patient, is perceiving that the other person truly understands them, isn't it? And you can only understand somebody else, one understands oneself. But certainly this concept of list, active listening, isn't it is critical part of it. And tying that in. Is self awareness something that can be improved upon? Is it like the analogy I used early training a muscle, can you train it or is it just kind of innate tissue that's there and you've got it, whatever you've got is what you've got. It's not going to change however much you try. But I assume it's a skill like many others, where you can certainly improve one self awareness, whatever that means itself, but then also train to be better at it.
[19:52 ] Perry: Absolutely. Yeah. You can just spend time, you can take several different assessments and then apply what you've learned about yourself. Be aware, watch out for patterns, look at how you respond or react. Right. So we want to get to where we are like we understand ourselves well enough that we can feel the trigger, that we can look at how we respond versus how we react. And then if we end up getting responded negatively or having a response reaction that we did not desire, then we can go backwards and go, well, what triggered that? Or was there like a mindset issue or a belief issue that caused me to think that did I make that decision out of fear or out of guilt or shame or was it a wise decision? So I think that the more you know about yourself taking some assessment, digging deep with them, the better off you are in just walking out the application day to day. And so journaling is a great example of how you can do that. Just being able to reflect and see where did my value show up today? Were they supported or were they challenged? How did I use my strengths or my talents today? What sabotaging thoughts came to my mind today that drove my decision making or drove how I reacted to people? And then only then, when you start recognizing the patterns, that you can adjust and create the responses that you really want.
[21:39 ] Richard: I think having what you're essentially inferring or saying is one has to take the time to analyze after a communication or an event to understand or at least improve one's self awareness. What I find though, is as a society, we don't do a good job of either reaching out for feedback to help us with our self awareness, or people offering feedback to help us with our self awareness. I assume it's because people just tend to don't want the chance of conflict, perhaps because I suppose it goes back to the idea, if you believe you're self aware already, any type of comments on how one interacted may very easily be perceived as somebody else's problem rather than your own. And I think people struggle with challenging other people's behaviors, which is a shame, because I don't think by not challenging other people in a professional manner in the workplace, you're actually, in the long run, doing a disservice to the individual that really needs that feedback. Yes.
[22:59 ] Perry: Yeah.
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[23:39 ] Richard: So I agree, from a practical perspective, leaders, clinic leaders, help their team become more self-aware. What can they do? So obviously, from a business perspective, I want everyone to be as self-aware as possible because by the sounds of it, it's impacting my patient care, clinical outcomes, and financial performance. So I can teach my team, for instance, PNL statements. I can teach them how I believe a good treatment should look. Can you teach the team or can you coach them on trying to improve their self-awareness? And how might that look?
[24:26 ] Perry: Yeah, I think, well, first, you would start off with the stats of how many people truly are self-aware versus how many people think that they're self-aware. That would be your first step, because you're creating awareness that there's a need for self-awareness. Right. And then second, you would take there's different assessments that you can take them through. And I would suggest you can hire a coach to take your team through this. Whether it's a values assessment, clifton Strengths Finder, Disc, positive Intelligence Laboratory assessment, there's lots of different assessments out there that can create conversation, and that conversation can be continued to create more and more awareness. Right. Because you don't want to just take assessment and leave it there. Or do assessment, say, if you do Strength finder, okay, we're going to work on strengths for two months and then switch to another assessment. I feel like to get the best benefit, an organization would need to take the assessment and use that terminology, use those strengths. If that's what you chose to do for six months to a year to really build and dig deep into that self awareness that's that third step of application, right. Where you continue to see it through, and then I believe you'll see an amazing level of increased personal and professional growth. Right. So in that, say, if you take the assessments, then to determine who can work with you, who can hold you accountable. So are you going to have peer groups within your organization that will hold each other accountable? And also, whenever we go through self awareness and team events like this, I would suggest you start off with baselines. That okay, everybody is going to come into this with curiosity. Let's not be judgmental. Everybody is different. Everybody's in a different level of or in path in their life and in their professional life. And so if you start with a level playing field like that and see that this is a way that we can help each person grow, that would be huge as an organization to grow together.
[26:52 ] Richard: Yeah. What's interesting. You talk about the various tests, and I've done multiple tests over many years. But when I was introduced to these tests, I was already in a managerial position, which in hindsight, is way too late, because I think everyone can benefit. From the front office to the rehab tech, to the PTA, PT Clinic Direct, all the way through to the CEO, can benefit? But the quicker that one can understand oneself is self aware, the better the organization. So I think we're doing a disservice, aren't we, of introducing a sentence to the test or the strengths finder for managers. Everyone should be doing it in an organization. Is that fair assessment?
[27:43 ] Perry: I agree totally. And really, I appreciate your point that it starts with the front office, right. All the way to the CEO. Because if you are trying to build a business based on the patience and retention of staff, and you want the patient to come in, have a phenomenal experience with your front office staff, and if they don't know how they're presenting themselves, if they don't have tools to work with difficult people, you might be setting yourself up for failure. And then you also need your clinicians to be very self aware. I've seen clinicians out there phenomenal clinical skills, but their bedside manner, there's much to be desired. They lose patients because of the bedside manner. So I totally agree. Organization wide program would strengthen each person. It would help with employee engagement, employee satisfaction, and patient satisfaction. And when the patient is satisfied and has great outcomes, the clinic, clinicians are going to be happy. The organization is going to be happy, and everybody's going to grow as a whole. So I see it as a trickle down approach, but then it also reflects back up.
[29:04 ] Richard: So most clinics have that one person in the clinic, don't they? The one that truly does have that lack of really does have that lack of self awareness. I think, as you say, I think most people have a degree of deficit. But it's quite remarkable, isn't it? There's usually that one person that one knows that has absolutely no understanding of how they come across. And as I've mentioned, I think it's difficult for somebody to challenge that because they're afraid that it will create conflict. But we've got to deal with it. So from a practical perspective, you're a clinic director. How do you deal with that one individual? Because it definitely impacts the business, if only the morale of the team itself. So how would they start to go about to perhaps address that with the individual?
[30:04 ] Perry: Yeah, that's a big question, right? There's lots of directions you can go. But I would say as a leader, we need to be curious. We need to ask questions, get other perspectives, really understand and have concrete examples to give to that employee of how they showed up and what impact it had on their colleague, the patient. And I think, too, if that person is not aware that they're not self aware, bringing in that stat again might be helpful, right, that most people don't believe I mean, most people are not self aware. And also, if it's so if it's a clinician, you can actually there's a webinar I watched about the triangle of patient outcome. The three different sides represents the pieces that produce a powerful patient outcome. One is the patient themselves. The other side of the triangle is the evidence based practice, and the third side is the clinician. And they said that the clinicians skills. So, say, if clinicians have the same general skills across the board, although we know some people have specialties and certifications or whatnot, but it's the soft skills of that clinician that have the most powerful impact. Okay? So if you can get that clinician to understand, hey, we want better patient outcomes and so we want to make sure everybody's self aware, you can either pull this person aside and do it individually or do it as a group or a team. But what I would caution you is not to bring in a coach as a punitive measure, because I don't believe that that would really work if it was a group effort. Yes. And then bringing this person alongside of other people might be a good way of doing it. Plus, if you do it in a group, like build self awareness in the group, richard, as you're talking about the increased self awareness that you're learning as we're doing, say, strength finder, then I could have my own, AHA, moments like, oh, now I see how people do this or how they see themselves or what they're learning. If it's a values based program, like, okay, let's talk about everybody's values and the differences in values and how the values might be what's creating conflict. Because I value one thing, you value another. Therefore, even though we might be striving for the same outcome, we're trying to get there in two different ways based on what we value. So I don't know, does that help?
[32:43 ] Richard: Absolutely. So I love the idea that really, instead of perhaps singling out the individual, really, perhaps, at least in the start, it's including the whole team, because the whole team can benefit from the information and from the questions and from perhaps the tests or however one goes about trying to improve oneself and earn awareness. Because it's not as if you either have self awareness or you don't. I think it's a journey, isn't it? And as a leader, I'm still developing that skill set of self-awareness and I still make mistakes. I'm sure my Darrett reports would probably say I make lots of mistakes due to lack of self-awareness. But certainly it's not only a muscle you have to develop, but then you have to maintain, isn't it, for everyone. So the idea of including everyone, I think is great. And the other thing that I think is really important, and I've found the same thing, is presenting concrete examples, because being objective can be very helpful, because I think it can prevent a lot of misunderstanding or people taking things personally. And I think it can be received much better if you say, hey, let's talk through what happened, let's look at perhaps some of the reasons why. And in speaking with such and such, this was their response. So it takes that possible conflict or reduces that chance of possible conflict.
[34:25 ] Perry: Yeah. And also, I think using a coach approach, meaning asking them questions, getting digging deeper, is very helpful as well. Versus us telling, as a leader, if you just tell people, it's hard for them to internalize and create their own solutions. And when we help them create their own solutions, that empowers them to be successful.
[34:49 ] Richard: If I'm the owner of a company, how do I manage or how do I help clinic directors? I assume it's probably very similar to how I would really coach up any individual within the clinic, because I assume you're trying to achieve the same outcome. So you would use the same skills? Probably. But is there anything different that you would use, or techniques, tactics to improve the self awareness of the leaders, to help the business than you would perhaps the front office or rehab techs or Pts, or is it really kind of the same?
[35:30 ] Perry: Probably overall, it's very similar. People need self-awareness in different areas of their lives, right, different. So their strengths and their values and whatnot. However, if I was a clinic owner and I was wanting to train and train my leaders we've talked about this before I'm really passionate about if we as leaders can help our staff, if we can pour into our staff, support our staff's well being, right, help them be healthy holistically then they're able to pour in. They have what's needed to pour into their patients and to show up well for the patients. And then everyone wins. And. So if business owners support their leaders, that's their patient, so to speak, that's their clients. And then the leaders support the clinicians, the clinicians support the patients. It's a trickle down approach. And if everybody is being trained and given the tools needed to show up, well, it's going to elevate everybody's level of engagement, ownership, satisfaction. You're not going to have therapists with 1ft out the door. I think it's a win win for everyone.
[36:59] AD: At Alliance, we believe that partnership means creating something greater than the sum of its parts. Our focus is finding physical therapy practices with a strong culture and thriving community and providing them with additional tools, resources, and expertise to take their practice to the next level. To learn more about joining our nationwide community of outpatient physical therapy practices, visit our website allianceptp.com.
[37:26 ] Richard: Like most things, I suppose, as a leader, you have to it's one part of many pieces of the puzzle, isn't it? And I don't think you can, like you're saying, address just self awareness piece without addressing just the general care of your employees, good communication, promoting a healthy environment, physical environment, environment as pertains to mental health, et cetera, et cetera. So it's really trying to look at it holistically to truly be successful.
[38:02 ] Perry: Yeah. And also another key piece is to help the managers or leaders to understand the harm in micromanaging. So, like, if controllers are top saboteur and they think deep down they need to control every little thing to get the outcome that they want, it just increases anxiety. Right. And it causes our employees to shut down because they feel like they don't have the autonomy. They become disengaged and resentful. And even though your intentions are good, you're not lifting your employees up and giving them the tools that they need to. Soar does that make sense?
[38:44 ] Richard: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a fine line between focus and micromanagement, basically.
[38:50 ] Perry: Yes, there is. And also, you still have to hold those tough conversations. You still have to hold people accountable. But the more self aware you are as a leader, the better you're going to manage those challenges.
[39:06 ] Richard: Yes. Time is against us a little bit. I'd love, perhaps any final thoughts you may have as it pertains to the topic of self awareness or generally how clinic leaders can be more successful overall. Perhaps anything that you're seeing with your coaching, that is a blind spot for clinical leaders and practice owners.
[39:32 ] Perry: Yeah. So some of the clients that I've worked with have expressed concern with feeling like they've been micromanaged, feeling they don't have autonomy. And I know insurance has played a big role in there, unfortunately. Right. But I think having that open dialogue with managers is huge. And then as a manager or leader, having an open door policy, being present when someone wants to talk to you, being open to learn and be curious where people are coming from. Your staff might have the best ideas, but unless you take the time to get to know them, really ask for their input and understand that some of the input might not be from criticism, but just a desire to grow. That's huge. The clinicians like turnover intention increases when clinicians don't feel seen, valued, and heard right, and when there's not good communication and when there's lack of support from supervisors and leaders. And I understand as rehab leaders and clinic owners, you have all these other fires to put out. You've got all the hard skills that you've had to learn all the business things. But taking time, I think, to give to each person individually is huge. And people might say, hey, Perry, you're advocating that we coddle, right? I hired these clinicians to do a job. I don't need to coddle them. And I would say it's not coddling. It's treating them as a holistic person, not just a therapist, a clinician who will produce revenue for you. It's not coddling them. It's elevating them. It's seeking ways, bringing out the best in them so you can help them, help propel them from good to great. And then that will help propel your organization to the next level.
[41:36 ] Richard: Wise words. Thank you so much for your time today. Perry, if anyone wants to contact you, utilize your services, how would they go about reaching out?
[41:49 ] Perry: They can go to perryashleycoaching.com. I'm also on LinkedIn at Perry Ashley, PT, ACC, CPQC, SCCC. And then they can email me at perryashleycoaching@gmail.com.
[42:04 ] Richard: Great. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate the conversation. Very different than perhaps the normal topic that we cover on this series, but I think equally important. So really appreciate it. Thank you.
[42:16 ] Perry: Well, appreciate your time and allowing me to talk about this overlooked topic. So thank you.
Podcast Transcript
[00:02] AD: Alliance Physical Therapy partners in Agile Virtual Physical Therapy proudly present Agile and Me, a Physical Therapy Leadership podcast devised to help emerging and experienced therapy leaders learn more about various topics relevant to outpatient therapy services.
[00:19 ] Richard: So welcome back to Agile and me, a PT Leadership series. We excited in this episode to speak with Perry Ashley from Perry Ashley Coaching. Welcome, Perry.
[00:32 ] Perry: Well, thank you for having me, Richard. I'm glad to be here.
[00:35 ] Richard: Thank you. So today's episode I want to talk about self-awareness. And I'm really quite looking forward to this because it's one of these topics that it's mentioned occasionally, but I don't really think that many leaders and managers give it much thought. But the more I think about it, the more critical this is, I think, to being successful. So very interested in learning more about it. So obviously, to begin with, it's really trying to understand what we mean when we talk about self awareness. So would you be able to provide us with your understanding of what it is and perhaps why it's so important?
[01:21 ] Perry: Right, yeah. Self awareness is really the ability to accurately recognize our thoughts, emotions, talents, triggers, patterns, needs, boundaries, values. There's just so much we are so multidimensional. Right. And so if we were able to accurately recognize those things and understand the impact that our behavior and actions have on others, that is true self awareness. And in that, you notice that it's a twofold piece. Right. It's the internal self awareness, the inward understanding of ourselves, as well as external self awareness, how others view us and perceive us.
[02:06 ] Richard: Absolutely. It's amazing, really, that on the whole, we don't do a good job recognizing our own thoughts and how we come across. And why do you think perhaps people struggle with this concept of self awareness?
[02:27 ] Perry: I really believe it's because we've become such a busy society. We constantly have input coming in at us at all times, as well as we are constantly striving to do. Right. Instead of being, I think we ignore the being part of us and understanding, like how we're wired, how we are different and unique, what brings us joy, what fills us up, what drains us. I think we just keep on going. We have so much to do, we just don't take time to consider all those other pieces.
[03:09 ] Richard: That concept I find very interesting. Would you be able to kind of perhaps expand on that a little bit with regards to practical examples and how perhaps society may have changed a little bit over time based on the idea you think that kind of information overload?
[03:30 ] Perry: Yeah. So if we look back in history and this is just totally my perspective of this, I think of like, okay, so although I live in Wisconsin, I'm from the south. And in the south we have those front porches. And back in the olden days, I think people just spent more time just being, I mean, sitting alone, sitting with another person. There was a lot of time for us to process our thoughts and process maybe our feelings as well. And I think over time we have ignored our feelings. A lot of us don't understand how to identify our feelings, what words to use for our feelings. And so we find it easier just to continue producing, continue to do something, to stay busy, whether that is physical or watching a TV show, watching TikTok videos. It's just easier, I think, to not engage with our true self.
[04:35 ] Richard: Yeah it's really interesting. I think this concept of what you're perhaps inferring is with modern day or as time has changed we have increasing number of stimulus which is perhaps impacting our ability to cognitively process and then respond in an appropriate manner. Am I being too simplistic in that way? So basically there's too much input which is impacting our ability to process and then give the appropriate response. Is that correct in saying that?
[05:13 ] Perry: Yeah, I totally agree with that.
[05:18 ] Richard: If that's the case then do you think that it's going to continue to get harder? Because to me with modern society and demands of society it seems that the amount of data and stimulus just seems to be increasing at an exponential rate which doesn't bode very well in some ways, does it?
[05:40 ] Perry: No, it doesn't. And it's hard to see that there's an end in sight to that. And so that's why I think it's so important for people just to choose to take time out for themselves, choose to get to know themselves better and choose to offer or to reserve space in their lives just to be able to process who they are, how they want to show up, who do they want to really be.
[06:06 ] Richard: Yeah, I assume that takes time in itself, doesn't it? Which I would imagine requires a lot of discipline on the individual because there's so many competing demands and increasing demands on our time that I assume one has to consciously set aside that period. I won't necessarily say it's introspective but certainly time of being rather than doing shall we say?
[06:37 ] Perry: Absolutely and I think one key piece sometimes we just have to put ourselves on the calendar make an appointment with.
[06:43 ] Richard: obviously does it matter when you do this, how often you do this, what's the literature saying and what's your thoughts with regards to being effective? With regards to this B component? Does it take almost like micronaps but small periods of time or is it a slightly longer period? Is there particular times of the day? I'd love to kind of get your thoughts on what it requires perhaps to prevent that overload which then kind of goes back to that idea of hopefully improving our self awareness.
[07:29 ] Perry: Yeah so that's a great question and when you were saying that it makes me think of the when you said naps I think it reminds me of what I do in the mental fitness training when I lead people through that. We do like many meditations, right, throughout the day. And there's literature that says, okay, yes, you can do 15 minutes of meditation a day for six to eight weeks, and you can actually change. There will be changes on a functional MRI. Okay? And in that you can also have many because some people say, well, I don't have 15 minutes a day, which I would totally challenge. However, if we can learn to be present, there's studies that show if we can learn to be present, we're happier in general. I mean, that's part of a, you know, to be happier, you just learn to be present and enjoy the moment. And so with the mini mindfulness exercises, you can actually, in the middle of the day, as you're walking down the hallway, you can do well, I use Positive Intelligence mental fitness program. So we do PQ reps, which are little mini-mindfulness activities. And first you learn how to do it when you're settled, and then as you get better and better at it, you can do it on the go. You can do it as you're walking down the hallway going to get your next patient. You can do it as you're sitting there with your patient. And then because you want to be able to settle your mind and just be present with the patient, make sure they're seen, valued, and heard, and then you're going to be a much more active listener. And it just helps with patient care. Right? So I know I went down a little trail there, but does that help?
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[10:05 ] Richard: So if we kind of backtrack a little bit, my perception is people's self awareness is, on the whole, poor. I know when we spoke briefly before, I think you confirmed that on the whole, a high percentage of people just really don't understand or know how they come across. Is that the case? And why is it important to be self aware, particularly as it relates to perhaps managing a clinic team, for instance?
[10:36 ] Perry: Okay, so I'll go with the question about general self awareness. 1st, 95% of people think that they are self aware. Okay? So 95% of the listeners here probably think they're pretty self aware. However, studies show that only ten to 15% of these people are truly self aware. That is, the majority of the people are totally unaware that they aren't self aware. Right? Like people who are self aware are generally living much richer lives. They're happier and more fulfilled. They're living in alignment with how they're wired. They're more effective in managing the gaps, they're better with relationships, they're better communicators and they're more confident. And especially as a leader, that confidence is huge because then you're able to take constructive criticism, you're able to grow and learn in controversy. And then one key piece is software. People tend to run more profitable companies. So I think that is very intriguing for the PT business owners.
[11:42 ] Richard: Yeah, that's remarkable because when I think about profitability the business, I think about control of operational metrics. I even think about recruitment, retention. But the idea of self awareness being a component, a factor, it makes perfect sense. Now you say it, but I've never been on a leadership course where during the day whilst they're talking about operational metrics they have a session on self awareness. But I think that by the sounds of it is equally important. My other thought with self awareness, this idea of only 1015 percent of people are self aware, it's no wonder that communications go Awry, isn't it? Going back to that kind of stimulus response, if the message isn't being delivered in an appropriate way, which by the sounds of it is very likely based on one's lack of self awareness you can't possibly get the response or the reply back from the recipient, can you?
[12:53 ] Perry: Correct. You really can't. And just knowing how you are being perceived by other people is huge. Right. Also I think a key factor in self awareness is the more you know about yourself, the more you realize everybody else is so unique. Right. They have different needs and values and strengths. And as a leader, if you can tap into that and communicate in a way that appeals to them, that really I would say you can talk to one person's heart in a different way. You can talk to another person's heart, if that makes sense. If you know someone has a victim saboteur, you might want to talk to them in a certain way versus if another person has a hyperachiever saboteur or if they have a gift in communication or context. I mean, you would just talk to them maybe differently. But just being aware creates the openness to consider other avenues of communication.
[13:53 ] Richard: Another way I perhaps look at it is the idea that I assume part of self awareness is understanding and managing one's own behavioral style. Because unless you're able to understand how you are coming across, then I assume it's extremely difficult to be able to flex and accommodate other people's behavioral styles. Unless there's that self awareness, you don't really stand any chance of being able to truly connect with your patient, with your employee, with your peers.
[14:36 ] Perry: Yes. And really self awareness is the first.
[14:39 ] Richard: Step to other awareness and then what do you mean by other awareness? Because interested to explore that perhaps?
[14:51 ] Perry: So when I think of other awareness, I'm thinking, okay, well, you have the two pieces of self awareness, awareness of your internal self and then how others perceive you. But the more you're able to tap into your own strengths and values and see yourself as unique, then other awareness is being able to pick out their strengths and talents and pull them up. You're able to meet their needs, see read their body language better so their verbal and nonverbal communication better.
[15:26 ] Richard: Yes. Now you say like that is obvious, I think a really good point. If you don't know yourself, then how can you know anyone else?
[15:35 ] Perry: So if you have taken like lift and strength and maybe one of your top talents is intellectual, the more you know about intellect as your talent theme and you understand that, hey, with intellectual I need time to think deeply and often, right? And if that's the case and you're a clinic leader, then you might come across as aloof or unapproachable. So you need to be aware of how others might perceive you. So that there's open communication there. Maybe they understand that's the way you are and that you're really not that's not your intent to be aloof and closed. It's just that you just need that thinking time and it's fine that they knock on the door and interrupt and then you engage with them. So that's one example. And so say an employee who has a top talent of focus, they might need to know the why and all the details so that they can stay on track. And if you aren't aware of this, then you might perceive that employee as challenging you. And that might cause you to be irritated or even insecure when that was not their intent at all. They just needed that extra information to get that correct direction before they move forward.
[16:50 ] Richard: It's much easier, isn't it, as individuals to if a communication doesn't have the anticipated outcome or result is to blame the other individual. It's much more convenient and easier rather than having this kind of introspective perspective and taking a look at ones essentially self awareness. Because it's hard work, isn't it, to critique oneself, particularly when you don't necessarily even have the skills to be able to identify what you're trying to critique. I know it's kind of getting a little into the weeds, but certainly in society we're very quick to place blame on the other party, the one that is receiving the information, isn't it?
[17:44 ] Perry: And so with conflict, if we can be okay with asking ourselves what is my role in this? What value might be challenged in this? So it might not be personality conflict, it might be a values conflict. And if you seek to understand the other person and ask, okay, in this conversation, in this dialogue with the other person, my goal is not to be thinking of what I'm going to say next. My goal is to listen intently and to understand the 10% that they're saying. That is right. And so if I am seeking understanding, that person is going to be seen, valued and heard, they're going to drop their guard and you're going to actually be able to have a better conversation if you're coming from a place of curiosity and understanding.
[18:45 ] Richard: Yes. It really goes to the point where the recipient of the communication or the, you know, the Clint, be it the clinician or the patient, is perceiving that the other person truly understands them, isn't it? And you can only understand somebody else, one understands oneself. But certainly this concept of list, active listening, isn't it is critical part of it. And tying that in. Is self awareness something that can be improved upon? Is it like the analogy I used early training a muscle, can you train it or is it just kind of innate tissue that's there and you've got it, whatever you've got is what you've got. It's not going to change however much you try. But I assume it's a skill like many others, where you can certainly improve one self awareness, whatever that means itself, but then also train to be better at it.
[19:52 ] Perry: Absolutely. Yeah. You can just spend time, you can take several different assessments and then apply what you've learned about yourself. Be aware, watch out for patterns, look at how you respond or react. Right. So we want to get to where we are like we understand ourselves well enough that we can feel the trigger, that we can look at how we respond versus how we react. And then if we end up getting responded negatively or having a response reaction that we did not desire, then we can go backwards and go, well, what triggered that? Or was there like a mindset issue or a belief issue that caused me to think that did I make that decision out of fear or out of guilt or shame or was it a wise decision? So I think that the more you know about yourself taking some assessment, digging deep with them, the better off you are in just walking out the application day to day. And so journaling is a great example of how you can do that. Just being able to reflect and see where did my value show up today? Were they supported or were they challenged? How did I use my strengths or my talents today? What sabotaging thoughts came to my mind today that drove my decision making or drove how I reacted to people? And then only then, when you start recognizing the patterns, that you can adjust and create the responses that you really want.
[21:39 ] Richard: I think having what you're essentially inferring or saying is one has to take the time to analyze after a communication or an event to understand or at least improve one's self awareness. What I find though, is as a society, we don't do a good job of either reaching out for feedback to help us with our self awareness, or people offering feedback to help us with our self awareness. I assume it's because people just tend to don't want the chance of conflict, perhaps because I suppose it goes back to the idea, if you believe you're self aware already, any type of comments on how one interacted may very easily be perceived as somebody else's problem rather than your own. And I think people struggle with challenging other people's behaviors, which is a shame, because I don't think by not challenging other people in a professional manner in the workplace, you're actually, in the long run, doing a disservice to the individual that really needs that feedback. Yes.
[22:59 ] Perry: Yeah.
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[23:39 ] Richard: So I agree, from a practical perspective, leaders, clinic leaders, help their team become more self-aware. What can they do? So obviously, from a business perspective, I want everyone to be as self-aware as possible because by the sounds of it, it's impacting my patient care, clinical outcomes, and financial performance. So I can teach my team, for instance, PNL statements. I can teach them how I believe a good treatment should look. Can you teach the team or can you coach them on trying to improve their self-awareness? And how might that look?
[24:26 ] Perry: Yeah, I think, well, first, you would start off with the stats of how many people truly are self-aware versus how many people think that they're self-aware. That would be your first step, because you're creating awareness that there's a need for self-awareness. Right. And then second, you would take there's different assessments that you can take them through. And I would suggest you can hire a coach to take your team through this. Whether it's a values assessment, clifton Strengths Finder, Disc, positive Intelligence Laboratory assessment, there's lots of different assessments out there that can create conversation, and that conversation can be continued to create more and more awareness. Right. Because you don't want to just take assessment and leave it there. Or do assessment, say, if you do Strength finder, okay, we're going to work on strengths for two months and then switch to another assessment. I feel like to get the best benefit, an organization would need to take the assessment and use that terminology, use those strengths. If that's what you chose to do for six months to a year to really build and dig deep into that self awareness that's that third step of application, right. Where you continue to see it through, and then I believe you'll see an amazing level of increased personal and professional growth. Right. So in that, say, if you take the assessments, then to determine who can work with you, who can hold you accountable. So are you going to have peer groups within your organization that will hold each other accountable? And also, whenever we go through self awareness and team events like this, I would suggest you start off with baselines. That okay, everybody is going to come into this with curiosity. Let's not be judgmental. Everybody is different. Everybody's in a different level of or in path in their life and in their professional life. And so if you start with a level playing field like that and see that this is a way that we can help each person grow, that would be huge as an organization to grow together.
[26:52 ] Richard: Yeah. What's interesting. You talk about the various tests, and I've done multiple tests over many years. But when I was introduced to these tests, I was already in a managerial position, which in hindsight, is way too late, because I think everyone can benefit. From the front office to the rehab tech, to the PTA, PT Clinic Direct, all the way through to the CEO, can benefit? But the quicker that one can understand oneself is self aware, the better the organization. So I think we're doing a disservice, aren't we, of introducing a sentence to the test or the strengths finder for managers. Everyone should be doing it in an organization. Is that fair assessment?
[27:43 ] Perry: I agree totally. And really, I appreciate your point that it starts with the front office, right. All the way to the CEO. Because if you are trying to build a business based on the patience and retention of staff, and you want the patient to come in, have a phenomenal experience with your front office staff, and if they don't know how they're presenting themselves, if they don't have tools to work with difficult people, you might be setting yourself up for failure. And then you also need your clinicians to be very self aware. I've seen clinicians out there phenomenal clinical skills, but their bedside manner, there's much to be desired. They lose patients because of the bedside manner. So I totally agree. Organization wide program would strengthen each person. It would help with employee engagement, employee satisfaction, and patient satisfaction. And when the patient is satisfied and has great outcomes, the clinic, clinicians are going to be happy. The organization is going to be happy, and everybody's going to grow as a whole. So I see it as a trickle down approach, but then it also reflects back up.
[29:04 ] Richard: So most clinics have that one person in the clinic, don't they? The one that truly does have that lack of really does have that lack of self awareness. I think, as you say, I think most people have a degree of deficit. But it's quite remarkable, isn't it? There's usually that one person that one knows that has absolutely no understanding of how they come across. And as I've mentioned, I think it's difficult for somebody to challenge that because they're afraid that it will create conflict. But we've got to deal with it. So from a practical perspective, you're a clinic director. How do you deal with that one individual? Because it definitely impacts the business, if only the morale of the team itself. So how would they start to go about to perhaps address that with the individual?
[30:04 ] Perry: Yeah, that's a big question, right? There's lots of directions you can go. But I would say as a leader, we need to be curious. We need to ask questions, get other perspectives, really understand and have concrete examples to give to that employee of how they showed up and what impact it had on their colleague, the patient. And I think, too, if that person is not aware that they're not self aware, bringing in that stat again might be helpful, right, that most people don't believe I mean, most people are not self aware. And also, if it's so if it's a clinician, you can actually there's a webinar I watched about the triangle of patient outcome. The three different sides represents the pieces that produce a powerful patient outcome. One is the patient themselves. The other side of the triangle is the evidence based practice, and the third side is the clinician. And they said that the clinicians skills. So, say, if clinicians have the same general skills across the board, although we know some people have specialties and certifications or whatnot, but it's the soft skills of that clinician that have the most powerful impact. Okay? So if you can get that clinician to understand, hey, we want better patient outcomes and so we want to make sure everybody's self aware, you can either pull this person aside and do it individually or do it as a group or a team. But what I would caution you is not to bring in a coach as a punitive measure, because I don't believe that that would really work if it was a group effort. Yes. And then bringing this person alongside of other people might be a good way of doing it. Plus, if you do it in a group, like build self awareness in the group, richard, as you're talking about the increased self awareness that you're learning as we're doing, say, strength finder, then I could have my own, AHA, moments like, oh, now I see how people do this or how they see themselves or what they're learning. If it's a values based program, like, okay, let's talk about everybody's values and the differences in values and how the values might be what's creating conflict. Because I value one thing, you value another. Therefore, even though we might be striving for the same outcome, we're trying to get there in two different ways based on what we value. So I don't know, does that help?
[32:43 ] Richard: Absolutely. So I love the idea that really, instead of perhaps singling out the individual, really, perhaps, at least in the start, it's including the whole team, because the whole team can benefit from the information and from the questions and from perhaps the tests or however one goes about trying to improve oneself and earn awareness. Because it's not as if you either have self awareness or you don't. I think it's a journey, isn't it? And as a leader, I'm still developing that skill set of self-awareness and I still make mistakes. I'm sure my Darrett reports would probably say I make lots of mistakes due to lack of self-awareness. But certainly it's not only a muscle you have to develop, but then you have to maintain, isn't it, for everyone. So the idea of including everyone, I think is great. And the other thing that I think is really important, and I've found the same thing, is presenting concrete examples, because being objective can be very helpful, because I think it can prevent a lot of misunderstanding or people taking things personally. And I think it can be received much better if you say, hey, let's talk through what happened, let's look at perhaps some of the reasons why. And in speaking with such and such, this was their response. So it takes that possible conflict or reduces that chance of possible conflict.
[34:25 ] Perry: Yeah. And also, I think using a coach approach, meaning asking them questions, getting digging deeper, is very helpful as well. Versus us telling, as a leader, if you just tell people, it's hard for them to internalize and create their own solutions. And when we help them create their own solutions, that empowers them to be successful.
[34:49 ] Richard: If I'm the owner of a company, how do I manage or how do I help clinic directors? I assume it's probably very similar to how I would really coach up any individual within the clinic, because I assume you're trying to achieve the same outcome. So you would use the same skills? Probably. But is there anything different that you would use, or techniques, tactics to improve the self awareness of the leaders, to help the business than you would perhaps the front office or rehab techs or Pts, or is it really kind of the same?
[35:30 ] Perry: Probably overall, it's very similar. People need self-awareness in different areas of their lives, right, different. So their strengths and their values and whatnot. However, if I was a clinic owner and I was wanting to train and train my leaders we've talked about this before I'm really passionate about if we as leaders can help our staff, if we can pour into our staff, support our staff's well being, right, help them be healthy holistically then they're able to pour in. They have what's needed to pour into their patients and to show up well for the patients. And then everyone wins. And. So if business owners support their leaders, that's their patient, so to speak, that's their clients. And then the leaders support the clinicians, the clinicians support the patients. It's a trickle down approach. And if everybody is being trained and given the tools needed to show up, well, it's going to elevate everybody's level of engagement, ownership, satisfaction. You're not going to have therapists with 1ft out the door. I think it's a win win for everyone.
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[37:26 ] Richard: Like most things, I suppose, as a leader, you have to it's one part of many pieces of the puzzle, isn't it? And I don't think you can, like you're saying, address just self awareness piece without addressing just the general care of your employees, good communication, promoting a healthy environment, physical environment, environment as pertains to mental health, et cetera, et cetera. So it's really trying to look at it holistically to truly be successful.
[38:02 ] Perry: Yeah. And also another key piece is to help the managers or leaders to understand the harm in micromanaging. So, like, if controllers are top saboteur and they think deep down they need to control every little thing to get the outcome that they want, it just increases anxiety. Right. And it causes our employees to shut down because they feel like they don't have the autonomy. They become disengaged and resentful. And even though your intentions are good, you're not lifting your employees up and giving them the tools that they need to. Soar does that make sense?
[38:44 ] Richard: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a fine line between focus and micromanagement, basically.
[38:50 ] Perry: Yes, there is. And also, you still have to hold those tough conversations. You still have to hold people accountable. But the more self aware you are as a leader, the better you're going to manage those challenges.
[39:06 ] Richard: Yes. Time is against us a little bit. I'd love, perhaps any final thoughts you may have as it pertains to the topic of self awareness or generally how clinic leaders can be more successful overall. Perhaps anything that you're seeing with your coaching, that is a blind spot for clinical leaders and practice owners.
[39:32 ] Perry: Yeah. So some of the clients that I've worked with have expressed concern with feeling like they've been micromanaged, feeling they don't have autonomy. And I know insurance has played a big role in there, unfortunately. Right. But I think having that open dialogue with managers is huge. And then as a manager or leader, having an open door policy, being present when someone wants to talk to you, being open to learn and be curious where people are coming from. Your staff might have the best ideas, but unless you take the time to get to know them, really ask for their input and understand that some of the input might not be from criticism, but just a desire to grow. That's huge. The clinicians like turnover intention increases when clinicians don't feel seen, valued, and heard right, and when there's not good communication and when there's lack of support from supervisors and leaders. And I understand as rehab leaders and clinic owners, you have all these other fires to put out. You've got all the hard skills that you've had to learn all the business things. But taking time, I think, to give to each person individually is huge. And people might say, hey, Perry, you're advocating that we coddle, right? I hired these clinicians to do a job. I don't need to coddle them. And I would say it's not coddling. It's treating them as a holistic person, not just a therapist, a clinician who will produce revenue for you. It's not coddling them. It's elevating them. It's seeking ways, bringing out the best in them so you can help them, help propel them from good to great. And then that will help propel your organization to the next level.
[41:36 ] Richard: Wise words. Thank you so much for your time today. Perry, if anyone wants to contact you, utilize your services, how would they go about reaching out?
[41:49 ] Perry: They can go to perryashleycoaching.com. I'm also on LinkedIn at Perry Ashley, PT, ACC, CPQC, SCCC. And then they can email me at perryashleycoaching@gmail.com.
[42:04 ] Richard: Great. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate the conversation. Very different than perhaps the normal topic that we cover on this series, but I think equally important. So really appreciate it. Thank you.
[42:16 ] Perry: Well, appreciate your time and allowing me to talk about this overlooked topic. So thank you.