Episode 3: What Makes A Good Operational Leader

Richard: Welcome to the Agile&Me A Podcast series. Today I have a special guest, Antony Plasik, who's an expert in the field, of leadership, development, culture, transformation, and operations. Anthony has over 15 years of experience as a strategic operations leader and proven success in growing and scaling healthcare operations, improving quality profitability, and strengthening brand share through creative organizational management and leadership. Welcome, Anthony. Great to have you on the program.

Anthony: Honored to be here and looking forward to our discussion.

Richard: Before we go into questions, I'd love to know a little bit about yourself.

Anthony: Yes, absolutely appreciate you asking for me. I stumbled into the world of healthcare kind of inadvertently. Always had the intention to go in. I started my academic career and got a degree in health administration. But after sustaining some injuries and not really understanding my physical limits as a young man, I ended up having an experience with a healthcare provider and physical therapy, and it really opened up my eyes to where I needed to be at that point in my life. In terms of career ultimately were hired on by the organization and helped grow their business. We actually exploded the business in terms of growth and intended to go in and take ownership of the location. But to do so, I needed to get a physical therapy license and put myself back into school and received my Master of physical therapy. I came back out to come back to that business unfortunately, Some of the personal sides had rolled into the professional side of the business and I decided to jump in elsewhere and found another small organization at that point in time within ATI physical therapy and was able to help grow and scale the organization over, over the years. It was a very exciting opportunity and we grew exponentially I learned quite a bit along the way and shifted gears and moved into the management position. Moving along the ranks with our growth and ultimately really knowing that if I were to serve my team well as a leader, I needed to make an investment in myself. I decided to get back in and get my doctorate in physical therapy with an emphasis on the executive program and practice management. Through the evidence in Motion Group, which was a wonderful program. In all honesty, it was a pretty humbling program. I realized that I don't know a whole lot and I think that advanced learning kicked in my synopsis to have that quest for more knowledge. As I go forward here in terms of being a better leader in serving my teams with everything that I could bring to the table. I went down a pathway of self-development thereafter and really have. Come to love the leadership world and the genre of leadership in the literature and it's taken me down some different paths in terms of self-discovery as well as learning in terms of neuroscience and really understanding what is great leadership. From there I took an opportunity with Confluent Health and helped grow their organization, and coach the brand CEOs on a national level. And unfortunately, with this crazy year of 2020, I ended up moving into my consulting business, and that's been a great opportunity to help work with emerging leaders as well as organizations. Exercising the full power of leadership to get results. Currently, I have taken a new turn in my career path and wanted to expand my learnings from an operational perspective. I currently reside as a COO of the largest allergy and asthma business underneath one brand in the nation with family allergies and asthma.

Richard: What I find really interesting is your entry into therapy is really quite different than most people. Most people tend to do a kinesiology undergraduate degree knowing that they'll go into some healthcare practitioner role, but it's very rare does somebody come from a health administration role and then do the clinical side. It's usually the other way around. The other thing I would say, which find quite interesting is the fact that you feel that as you progress in your career and your leadership, it's almost as if, I feel that we know less rather than know more. And I think that's a sign of true leadership, isn't it? Then when you understand that there's still a lot more to actually learn.

Anthony: 100%. I learn every day through the folks that I get an opportunity to work with and meet, and I challenge myself. I'm learning for me, I desire to have a certain level of expectation and expertise in what I bring to the table and so I push the envelope and push myself. To dig in and really get to a full-tilt understanding of something in the event that I don't have a good understanding. So it's kind of a two-tiered approach. We're learning through people and then getting into what's out there in terms of available knowledge base to help enhance what I can bring back to help ultimately serve those with that I'm working.

Richard: But obviously the title of the podcast is “What makes a good operational leader?” But before we kind of dive into that we first need to understand really what we mean by a good operational leader. I'd love to get your thoughts on what you believe good operational leadership means.

Anthony: To me, I define it with a three-tiered approach. I really think ultimately as a leader, you're responsible for getting results, and so that has to be one of the legs of the chair. But how you get there as a leader is really what defines great operational leadership. I would have to say the next tier that is so critically important to helping drive great results is really what you do with your teams, how you build them, and how you develop 'em. On top of that, once you have that leg of the chair fairly well set, it's also the culture that you create but also doing it with a highly engaged team that's really setting out to achieve your mission and really is aligned with your organizational values in order to do it and truly be a differentiator in the market.

Richard: I really love that idea of a kind of three-legged stool because unless you possess all three, you can't be successful. So it's not just enough is it to have kind of two legs and what's really interesting is obviously results are critical, but without the other two legs, you're never gonna get the results or the results will never be. If we move on a little bit, I'd love to know your thoughts on the idea of whether leadership skills are kind of innate or really whether they're taught or a combination thereof.

Anthony: I think a combination of both, but fortunately it's a situation where leadership can really be taught.For me, I think the piece of it that would be innate is your desire, your desire to push yourself, your desire to serve others, your desire to have that open mind and learn and bring it back and, and elevate those around you. But the how-tos and being a great operational leader are definitely pieces of the puzzle if you have that desire, you can build yourself up and you can continue to learn and, and perfect to your best ability. The art of leadership.

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Richard: Welcome back. When we talk about individuals, what has interested me throughout my career is the majority of leaders have been somewhat extroverted. I might even say the word narcissistic. I've always wondered whether you can be an introvert and still be an efficient and effective leader. I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

Anthony: I think that's a great question, a lot of people look at are attributes or characteristics of a leader and we can maybe trail kind of back into that thought here, but in terms of whether an extrovert or an introvert is better. I would have to say, the best leaders are probably ambiverts those that fall a little bit in the middle. Fortunately, from us, there's quite a bit of research out there about this. Generally, people tend to be ambiverts, they're not on, on the full. Sides of that dichotomy of extrovert or introvert. I think why an ambivert is really the person that would have that propensity to continue to progress on the leadership journey that ambiverts tend to be able to do two things very well that I think to coincide with being a strong leader. And that's your ability to communicate. But more importantly, your ability to listen well. I think when you are an introvert and you're in that zone, so to say, within, you know, the level of being avid you really are one who has a little bit more introspection. You're the one that listens well and you're. Thoughtful in your approach and you start to process information differently. If you can access that side of the story relative to being an extrovert, it allows you to communicate more effectively and everything. To me with respect to building relationships, which is critically important in leadership falls on the way that we communicate. Communication is such an important undertone in what we do in leadership. How we communicate. I think that ambivert has an opportunity to really connect with people through listening, but then also further that connection through communicating well with them.

Richard: I certainly have a relatively introverted personality and I don't feel that it's necessarily held me back. However, what I have found is it takes a while for people to truly be able to connect with me and believe that I have the necessary skill set and the experience to be able to be effective at the position.

Anthony: Introverts are remarkably successful at many high-level roles in leadership. Which is wonderful to hear. A lot of people think, oh no, you have to be this very verbose person and someone who's completely energetic and outgoing and that's not necessarily the truth. I would believe that you're a testament to that.
Richard: Do you feel that as an operational leader, one has to have a certain set of values to be effective and successful?

Anthony: Absolutely. To me, value-based leadership is, is very important. Values really are your guiding light and your moral compass, which will help you in your belief system. When you have that right and steady belief system that's congruent with your values that help create your attitude. When you have the right attitude, your actions and your behavior are gonna coincide. So if you're working within a zone that's congruent with your values, you're gonna be a consistent leader. I think that a very important piece in building trust is reliability and consistency. I think that carries forward to also getting good results.

Richard: We have talked about the individual attributes needed to be an effective operational leader, but I'm very cognizant that I think there are certain external factors that can influence one's ability to lead also. What are your thoughts about this and what do you think are some of those external factors that are important in whether one is effective or not as a leader?

Anthony: Sure. A couple of things. That I'd like to trail back into and, and just to, you know, reframe it in terms of attributes. We just shared the thought process of being able to have values. I would also have to say that some of those values are important to discuss before we get into  the external influences. So if you're open to exploring some thoughts there. I'd love to continue. Absolutely. I think when we look at those you know, important personal attributes, I think the very first thing to start with is a mindset. As a leader, your mindset is so critical to what happens to your team, to your business, and ultimately the results you get. I'm one who really believes in the sense of taking responsibility as a leader. I think that a lot of times leadership, we kind of subtly touched on this before Is one where perhaps, people tend not to do that and they really feel empowered and it's become about them.  I think a humble leader who takes responsibility and in a sense has an ownership mindset to what those responsibilities are is really the foundational approach that's gonna allow your attributes to shine as a leader and everyone's attributes are gonna be a bit different, which is great because that allows you to create your own leadership style and approach as you progress along the path. But I do believe certain things are very important in terms of. Those values or characteristics help you connect with your team. I think the most important point in connecting with your team is building trust. So there's, to me a good recipe to do so relative to characteristics or skills to work on. That's really aiming to communicate well with people in the sense of being open. I would believe that being transparent with people as a leader is very important as well. I think being reliable with people is important. With that consistency, you have to show up and be consistent. They have to know which leader they're gonna get and, and not have a different leader show up based on different circumstances. I think with that said when you are consistent, you show a sense of authenticity and being authentic, it allows you to  demonstrate your integrity and that you live to your word and you meet what you say and you do it in a genuine fashion. So I think those characteristics and perhaps skills because you can work on all these. Really fosters trust with your team. When you have that trust, that's when you really start to build your followership. Once you have your followership, I think that allows you to be able to lead through challenges that are externally driven.

Richard: You bring up some really great points there. The idea of transparency, consistency or authenticity, integrity, and I really latch onto the concept of humility as well. That's something that  I've certainly developed more and more as my career evolves, and it's not about me as the leader, it's about the entire team and the enterprise. I would add one more that I think is probably critical in combination with the ones that we said humility has to be ambitious as well. Then if you add those two together, it's humble.

Anthony: I love that and I agree. You need drive to be a leader and you definitely need to have that energy around a person who centers himself in further that thought. I think the point about ambition is that it drives a sense of discipline in your approach, and they do the things they need to do to continuously progress and be better and be focused on that forward movement. Which I think sets the stage for attainment of goals.

Richard: Absolutely. It requires a kind of relentless focus. Without that focus, It doesn't really matter how good you are, you won't necessarily reach the end point.

Anthony: Exactly, I use you know, a similar term and, and that's as you are ambitious, when you have that drive, where is your drive directed? Definitely how are you focused and how you're prioritizing in order to get to where you're aiming to go.

Richard: If we move a little bit towards external factors, when I think of the external environment impacting one's effectiveness as an operational leader, I often think of Winston Churchill. One may argue that he was the greatest war Prime Minister or one of the greatest prime ministers even in England in no small part was responsible for, for you know, winning World War 2, defeating the Nazis. But as a wartime leader he was remarkable. But after the war, he really struggled as a leader and he didn't change as an individual. So I have a feeling that there were some external factors that impacted his ability to be successful as a leader. I was wondering if you agree with that and feel that doesn't matter how good one is as a leader, there are certain attributes and factors. Beyond their control or IM impact their ability.

Anthony: I think that's a great thought and I would also agree to it in the sense that having leadership, it's not a one and done story. Leadership is a progression. It's a journey. The concept would be situational leadership, and you have to use different levers of leadership and mold and craft your style. To different circumstances. I think kind of going back to those innate characteristics or attributes in building trusting relationships and navigating followership with your team. How to tackle these external scenarios, adaptability comes to mind as a leader. Flexibility and really as a leader, you also have to have that empathy with your team and in knowing in what situation where they are. I think from a formulaic perspective, knowing yourself and where you are, which approach and which style will serve that circumstance well then leveraging the connection with your team, aware and socially aware social emotional awareness is very important in understanding where your team's perceiving the situation, as well as understanding where they're at on the spectrum in personal growth of their own leadership to handle. For me when you look at situational leadership, it's putting those pieces together and then really addressing the external factor with a full scale set of where you are, your approach that you need, where your team is, how they're feeling about it. Where their expertise is and then setting up the structure to tackle what lies ahead. I think, you know, that requires a whole onslaught of thoughts and level of leadership. That really is a situation where you as a leader need to push yourself and understand how you're showing up and what you can do for your team. And if you are gapped out, perhaps you're not rising to that situational well because you're missing one of those factors. So I would make the estimation and speculation that maybe Churchill struggled because he navigated such a heavy critical situation and was driven with so much depth of purpose to maintain freedom and not let evil factors rule the world. When he came back out of that zone, he struggled with shifting gears and addressing a different situation and perhaps taking a different style and approach in the moment of a little bit more calmness.

Richard: Absolutely. It's interesting, people are asking you what your leadership style is? I remember going to an interview years ago, and one of the questions was, how would you describe your management style? And I struggle to answer it, not because I don't understand the different attributes of management. The style of management is situational, isn't it? The organization, and the difference between. Good leader and an exceptional leader is their ability to pivot their style and interact with the team or individuals in a very different manner based on what's being discussed, the environment in which it's being discussed, the culture of the organization. And it's having that understanding that that one size doesn't fit all, doesn't it?

Anthony: Absolutely. That question in an interview is so hard to answer. You almost have to ask a question back in what context, what are we tackling as a leader? You know, you're only a leader if you're able to influence and you have a set of followers and you have to know where your followers are at and what expertise they have and how they're perceiving the situation. Then you can come together as a leader and truly lead by influencing them. They won't follow you unless you have that trusted relationship with them. I think you can modulate your approach based on the circumstances. If you leverage some of those attributes in particular, the transparency and the authenticity. I think you'll get people to follow you and, and they won't have hesitation and you can rise up to the greatest challenges.
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Richard: If we pivot a little bit further. I've found critical to one's success is really the organizational culture within which one operates. I think it has a profound impact on the leader's ability to manage, implement, change, and be successful. I'd love your thoughts on that.

Anthony: This is one where we could probably spend an entire other podcast on culture. Although perhaps hard to measure on a spreadsheet, so to say, it is 100% the magic that moves the mountain towards the results that you're aiming to get. I think although you might have organizational culture you can also have span or scope of responsibility, culture and how your team rises to challenge and you have that opportunity. As a leader to do so. And so for me, culture is so important and as I mentioned before knowing yourself as a leader is important. Being able to connect with your team, but also building the culture is key. And there's quite a bit of research out there to show that organizations that have a great culture are also centered around purpose. Have a great opportunity to do business differently and really be sustainable. I think this is an area of passion for me in particular, knowing that I've experienced a multitude of different cultures and I would have to say the cultures that ultimately arrive at what would be, in a sense, self-government. Where people are all aligned, based on the values and the purpose, and making those right decisions and doing the right thing is one that takes a lot of work. And so you really have to be thoughtful in your approach to building your culture because it can get you where you wanna go and even further and keep you along that path.

Richard: I think culture is king, almost without it the right culture or focusing on the development of the culture. I don't think one can be truly successful or the organization. I also believe that if you have a strong culture then a positive, strong culture cause you can have bad cultures as well, but if you have a great culture, I think that can compensate for perhaps a skill, a lack of skill set or weakness of individuals.I think you can, you can achieve great success.

Anthony: As culture maybe overshadows some weaknesses. I believe that culture can pull people forward and make them better and better employees because they're in that culture. And you described it positively, and I think that's such a critical and operative word in culture, but I think when you have that right culture, you actually pull people forward. And what you do is you pull people forward and they start to work on a team. And to me, I think it's important to be in a culture where, It's open-minded where there's, in a sense, the concept of learning from each other and learning as we go versus one where you're not being judged. I think if you're in a situation where you're in a culture where you are worried about being judged and you can't make mistakes and oh my God, I'm gonna lose my job if I do something wrong. Just creates a downward spiral where you see people that are unwilling to pull together as a team. And so I think the fabric of creating a great team in essence, a positive culture, is really, as a leader, having that open mind and having a learning mindset, a growth mindset around how we can do this better and how do we pull together. Then from there, your team understands that they are a valuable part of the contribution to arrive at our goals. They're more willing to contribute if it's open and they know that they're not gonna be judged for an idea.

Richard: Moving on. Obviously as leaders, we've had significant challenges over the last almost year with Covid. I've certainly changed my style or softened my style during this period of time. It's been an extremely stressful and anxious time for everyone. Do you feel that Covid has changed how operational leaders lead their clinics and organizations? And, and if so, how? 

Anthony: Absolutely. I think that you hit the nail on the head and said maybe soften your style. I think the way that I would look at it to say that operational leadership now carries a little bit of compassionate transparency. I think the people that have navigated this unique challenge are folks that have met it with a sense of compassion and understanding, but also being completely transparent about where we're at and what we need to do. I think, again, that goes back to communicating. Just people wanna be in the know. They wanna feel certainty, and that's hard to do in uncertain times. But as a leader, if you know where you're going and you're aiming to innovate or pivot. Having that sense of compassion and being transparent about where we're going and what we're gonna do really allows for, for navigating such circumstances with, with a little bit more certainty or at least a little bit more connection to your team and them feeling like they have a path and that we're in this together, and that we're gonna, we're gonna do what we can to survive and make it through.

Richard: Yes, in the beginning I was really concerned about how the team and the culture, the organization could be adversely impacted. I believe the fact that I was extremely transparent, open, honest, however hard and difficult that was. I think it did the opposite of creating issues. It actually had a very profoundly positive impact on the teams and, and pulled people together in a way that really I have never seen. That in combination with the empathy or the emotional and increasing emotional intelligence, I think has strengthened the organization even further.

Anthony: Absolutely. It's unique in kind of going back to the concept of Churchill and great purpose. We as humans, we tend to bond together and I think we bond together when our values are aligned and we know that we need to rise to occasion. When we're in circumstances where we have this heavy external factor to fight. I think if there is that sense of openness and compassion and understanding, but yet direction it helps navigate the toughest of circumstances and people will rise to it and wanna be a part of it and look to continue to contribute versus kind of crawling back in a hole and just worrying about it. You know what's gonna happen on an individual level, although everyone does. I think that's where that openness comes in and being transparent with people and, and letting them know where the circumstances are at and, and how we're trying to tackle it in a manner that is inclusive of the team as well as supportive of the team and, and what their personal stories are.

Richard: Many of our listeners are emerging leaders. I'm gonna ask you almost an impossible question and ask you to see if you are able to provide three, four key attributes or factors that would be fundamental in assisting them as emerging leaders improve their skills or abilities too.

Anthony: You know, I think that's great. We kind of hit on this thematically through the conversation and I would have to say that leadership is a journey and we talked about it being a journey and taking different perspectives in leadership based on circumstances. And so I think inherently within that you need to be adaptable and flexible, but keep that open mind in learning.

I really think and believe that as a leader in a sense, from three to four factors that would help you  is really learning about yourself, really understanding where you are and how you're showing up. Engaging the team and understanding where they're at and how they're showing up. Then from there, those two found aiming to work on that culture in building that culture and maintaining that sense of positivity around the culture. I think when you do that, you can shift gears and really get into what I consider the discipline of execution. Because at the end of the day, going back to the three-legged stool, we're responsible for results. But where you're at, you engage your team, you build a great culture. Then you can invoke the discipline of execution and, and really work on a systematic approach in achieving your goals.  I think as far as what I've learned and what I aim to share when I work with individuals is really going back to the fundamentals and mindset and being adaptable and coming into it with a sense of responsibility and open-mindedness. Then getting into where you're at from. Engaging the team, building that culture. I think those things are 100% as an emerging leader, the areas to work on in terms of foundation, in building your leadership approach, style and journey. And that's gonna allow you to get the results that you aim for or perhaps are responsible for.

Richard: That's great advice and insight. Thank you. As we wrap up the podcast I have one last question. Who have you come across, either worked with or read about that you believe has demonstrated remarkable leadership, and what were their attributes that made them so successful do you think?

Anthony: This question is such a hard question. I think as a student of leadership, I've come across so many great leaders and so many great influencers in my path and my quest to learn more about leadership. So I think one thing, you know, that I come back to and I think that you said it as well, is just the sense of, of humility as a leader, as I mentioned as a leader I am to serve my teams. I think having that sense of heart and leadership around elevating those around you is such an important piece of leadership and not having this authoritative and authoritarian approach and I think it's about bringing those up around you and there's so many different people that have touched the concept of leadership and there's so much out there around leadership to me. I really believe that. You know, some of the key people that have demonstrated that sense of humbleness and elevating people around you are some of the people that were early on in the field. A favorite of mine that I've learned, you know, much from is Jim Ron, and, you know, he's, he passed away some time ago, but I've listened to him and read his content and, and there's so much gold in there. I keep coming back to it and he's mentored. People like Tony Robbins and other folks that have been so influential in our world in terms of being a better leader and getting results. Those individuals in particular, Jim Ron and Tony Robbins, tend to have a sense of humility and they tend to make a mark on making those around them better by sharing what they're sharing. And they have a little bit of fun and approach in how they're doing it. And so they're pretty likable. I think if you're humble I think if you're disciplined in growing yourself, if you come into it with a heart of sharing and making those better around you, but you're enjoyable and have a little bit of fun, I think you're gonna create some great success as you figure out who you are as a leader. We all have different styles and approaches, and we all have faults, and we've all made mistakes. I think that's okay as long as you're learning from those mistakes, you know? And there's no one out there like that. I think that we can all continue to learn from each other.

Richard: The time has run out. I'd like to thank you, Anthony, for being on the podcast today. The insight that you provided, I think, has been valuable. If there are any listeners who would like to contact you, how would they go about contacting?

Anthony: That's probably the best way to go about doing it online. From there, message me and, and that's probably the, the best source to connect with me.
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